The limits of science

76 thoughts on “The limits of science”

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11. π… — I have a hard time differentiating the exact definition of digits with that of irrational numbers such as e, π, etc. They have an exact definition, expressed as a RELATION. The very nature of any model trying to describe reality is an approximation dealing with ideal values to some extent but, unlike mathematics, they are not a matter of mind games disconnected from the physical reality. Thus: dealing with ideal values has not the same impact on mathematics as with , e.g., physics, since the mathematical realm is an ideal one…

    1. Untitled — The notion of “infinite” is a basic notion for mathematics and the most problematic one…Infinite digits, infinite limits, infinite series, infinite sets all appear and are used in mathematics but their relation to “reality” (if such a thing actually exists) is something not very well formulated. Even though mathematitians have invented symbols to express it, that does not mean they have solved the question of “what it is”.One question that can be asked is: how can we even say that a number with infinite number of digits “exists” (even though we do not know what “exists” means, but that is another subject…), when the total number of particles in the Universe is about 10^70? How can we have a number of infinite number of digits when the whole universe does not have enough computational “capacity” to hold more than a certain number of digits if we used every particle as a bit of information?

12. Untitled — You bring an interesting perspective to the issue of science. I think it’s important for people to not be too arrogant or sure of what they believe. Scientific thinking can certainly lead to strong feelings about how things are. On the whole I think scientific thought has been successful. But also, I think a good scientist is an open minded one.

    1. Untitled — Thanks for the comments. I aggree with you that the true scientist is an open minded one and that it is of great importance to recognize the limits of our knowledge and capabilities.

13. Irrational numbers — I have to say that I don’t understand your point about our inability to write irrationals as a terminating sequence of decimal digits. Pi can be defined perfectly in many different elegant ways. Geometrically, analytically etc. One can perform arithmetic operations on the number without any need to write it as a decimal. What is so special about decimal expansions?

    1. Untitled — Actually I do not know whether I have made my argument clear. What I intend to show with the article is that science (and a part of science is mathematics) is not the key to ultimate “knowledge” as some people believe. I do not claim to know anything more than anyone else, I just want to point out the main limitations of science and the underlying axioms it uses. So I agree that we should not be more confident for number 2 than number Pi, since they are both constructs. The construction of Pi is not something to argue with. I could also define a number called “Kakos” and noone would argue with me, since I am the one who defined it…However Pi and all irrational numbers (like the square root of 2) have an interesting property: even though it is well defined in many different ways, it cannot be calculated as a value. It is not the definition I am arguing about, it is the calculation of Pi that I find as an indication of our inherent inability to grasp reality with the tool called “mathematics”. You may define an infinite series of numbers and still be able to know that its sum is 5. You may define many mathematical constructs and then calculate them. But what if you define a construct and then you are not able to calculate it? What would that mean about our ability to understand reality? It is not a number that was imposed on us by some aliens, it is a number that as you said was constructed by us. And still, we can’t tell where it stands on the line of numbers.As far as infinity is concerned, it is true that using the notion of infinity you can reach conclusions that seem correct. And indeed Newton and Leibnitz used infinity (note: with the term “infinity” I refer to the infinately small terms ‘dt’ or ‘dx’ used in the Infinitesimal calculus). However even they were not so enthusiastic of that notion…To start from the beginning, Democritus in ancient Greece talked about atoms and infinitely small “things” in space, time and geometry. However the paradoxes of Zenon made the use of infinity problematic and not all Greek mathematicians accepted that term. Euclid defined a point as “something with a position but with no size” in an attempt to exclude the notion of infinity from his works (infinity is not mentioned in his Elements). Aristotle excluded the term of “infinately small or big” from all geometry. Archimedes used the notion of “infinity” for his theorems in his work “The Quadrature of the Parabola”, but then – since he did not accept the existence of such a term – he presented his results/proofs by using the method of exchaustion (that is, with the notion of “limit” and not the notion of “infinity”). That method is similar to the method of (ε, δ).The one who insisted on using the term of “infinity” in mathematics was cardinal Nicolas de Cusa, because he thought that infinity was “the source, the medium and the ultimate purpose of every knowledge”.Leibnitz did not claim that infinity “existed” (as you say, it is a construct of human), only that it can lead us to correct results as if it existed…Neweton, even though he used infinity to reach his results, he then presented them in a completely Eucledian and finite way…Bishop Berkeley (it is astounding how many people of the church use to do mathematics, despite many people believing that there is a “war” between science and religion) in his work “The Analyst” made an excellent criticism on the notion of “infinity” that was never refuted by mathematicians of his time. Moreover and in the 19th century, Weierstrass also proved that we can use the notion of limit without having to use “infinity” at all (something like the method of exchaustion of Archimedes).Now, we ofcourse use both. Like Pi, infinity is still in the game but noone has ever concluded to whether that “thing” is related to something in what we call “reality” (see the Platonic Ideas World) or not. My point is just that we should not trust blindly science to lead us towards “reality”, since not even mathematicians (the most clear-cut and theoritic scientists of all) have a clue on what the tools they use for thousands of years really “are”…

    2. Untitled — I’m afraid that I still don’t understand your arguement. Why should we be any more confident about the existence of the number 2 than the number pi? Or the square root of two? They are both mathematical constructs that are extremely useful in modelling reality. Is there something in the construction of pi that you object to? “What is more interesting is that everything that can be done in mathematics with the use of the notion of infinity can be done without it also!” This is a very bold statement that I find extremely hard to believe. Would you like to expand on this?”In the same way, number Pi (π) is consisted of an infinite number of digits.” Only if the expandsion of a number as a convergent series of powers of 10 is for some reason a definition of that number. Pi can be defined as the ratio between the circumference and the diameter of a circle. We can use this definition in many useful ways without ever needing to use decimal expansions.

    3. Untitled — The science of mathematics is the science of expressing numbers and finding relations between them. In that context, everything that is connected with the notion of infinity is problematic (e.g. π has an infinite number of digits). Infinity is the limit of our knowledge – not the knowledge of today but of the knowledge we will have at any point in time ever. You may say that (lim(x) with x increasing is infinity), but that would mean that you have actually named that limit “infinity” (the same way you could name it “Maria”) and called it quits, without actually KNOWING anything about that “limit”. Naming the things you don’t know “infinity” does not mean that you actually “know” them…What is more interesting is that everything that can be done in mathematics with the use of the notion of infinity can be done without it also! “Infinity” is a man-made theoritical structure. And it actually contradicts reality in many ways.Take for example the notion of a “straight line”. Some mathematicians (not all) postulate that a line like that is constructed by an infinite number of points. But if we start to “cut” the line into an infinite number of small pieces, then we will end up with pieces that have zero length (that is the “limit” in our case). So is a line consisted of a sum of “nothings”?In the same way, number Pi (π) is consisted of an infinite number of digits. However we don’t have even a clue about where the “limit” of that infinite line of digits will be. We cannot say π is between 3.14 and 3.15, since that would mean that we simply ignore the fact that the next decimal digit signals us to search the limit between 3.140 and 3.142 and so on. If you want to fool yourself you can do that pretty easily. But if you are a real mathematician, you will try to find the place where that number will “settle in”. And you will never can.In that way, we may use number Pi as a monkey uses a computer to press a button and get a banana for reward. The monkey does not know anything about how the computer works. Neither do we know anything about Pi…PS. You can easily construct a triangle with a hypotenuse equal to the square root of 2. However that number is irrational. In that way we are confronted with one of the major problems in philosophy: irrational numbers can and do exist in reality (e.g. on the piece of paper were we have drawn the triangle) but not in theory! Rather metaphysical I would say…PS2. Expressing something you cannot understand in many different ways does not mean that you understand it. Expressing π as an infinite series of numbers for example, simply transposes the problem you have from “define Pi” to “tell me the limit of that series of numbers”. Two ways to say the same thing: I cannot spell Pi.

14. Untitled — I agree with some of the things you wrote. There might be more than one explanation for an observed phenomena, but when one of them is accepted by the majority, nobody doubts it again. Scientists should be sceptic. But I don’t think religous beliefs can help us with that. You can take the existence of God for granted, you don’t have to question it. But this doesn’t apply to sciences like physics and biology. A scientific explanation should be questionable, otherwise it will turn into another dogma, like the ones you have rightfully criticized.

    1. Untitled — Thanks for the comment. I mostly agree with you. I did not actually intented to place religion beliefs into play as a solution/answer to the limitations of science. Religion beliefs are a very big issue indeed and I try to analyze them in my “Religional Science” knol. Thanks again!

15. Untitled — Dear Spiros:I agree: A coordinated choir is propagating the message that reductionist physics/mathematics is a model for all of science. But this song does not contain complexity and thus misses the essenceof scientific modeling of reality. It is not enough to stare at an elementary particle to understand the world. My main goal is to open to a synthesis of physics and soft science based on computation simulating the complex interaction of many agents.Current physics seems to be a catastrophy from scientific point of view, completely removed from any rationale and reality. Maybe this is the prize for putting religion in the wardrobe?Best regards,Claes

    1. Untitled — Hello and thanks for the comment! I have read some of your work and it seems really interesting and of high-quality. The limitations of science exist, but I do not actually relate them to religion. I believe that science and religion touch two very different fields of knowledge (see my “Religional Science” knol for more on that). Indeed modern science has been encapsulated and trapped into specific models of the cosmos and into specific ways of thinking. The bad news is that there seems no possible way out – at least at this point.

16. Thoughts / Reflections — “Things like moral, emotions, aesthetics and love cannot be measured, even though they are very important for human life. Science fields like physics, mathematics and chemistry simply cannot deal with these things.”I believe that morality, emotions and aesthetics can be measured, but not in a general way (i.e., all humans have the exact same experience of morality, emotions, etc.). For example, if chemistry does not provide us with a means for understanding emotions or moods, how can antidepressants possibly work? Is this a hoax? If so, then the pharmaceutical industry is bound to eventually colapse, right?I think the only failure of science has to do with constraints or costs. Some things are too costly for people to measure exactly. It’s to expensive to develop technology to measure things like tables exactly. However, when you look at the sciences in which people have a need for things to measured exactly (there is some economical benefit) usually humans progress towards better and better means for measurement until the return for such development tapers off (think of a growth function).When you consider the economics of science, you then come to find that perhaps there are definite answers to questions, it just becomes a matter of whether humans will ever need these answers in order to continue to exist in our ever changing environment.

    1. Untitled — The prediction that he will “want” to dring watter means exactly that: that he WILL WANT to dring water. If what you say happens, then no determinism applies to that mans decisions.

    2. Untitled — Free will is agency. Determinism is simply the idea that things can be determined; we can predict certain things to a degree of accuracy. I believe that these two ideas, determinism and agency, are not mutually exclusive. For example, perhaps we determine that a man will become thirsty and want to drink water after he has exercised and not drunk any water for some time. The man might hear us discuss this, and perhaps he is rebelious and decides that he does not want to drink the water and thus not provide us evidence that will help us test our drinking water model. In this situation, both a determinism and agency exist. So my response to the statement: “‘If you have everything represented with specific mathematical functions for example, then there is no room for what we call “Free Will”.’ is that it is not correct because based on the definition of determinism and agency (or free will) the two are not required to be mutually exclusive (and they are not required to be mutally inclusive).

    3. Untitled — I find it a good exercise to try to find which philosophical dogmas lie behind every opinion I express. I have some philosophical views in which I believe and so do you. The representation of everything related to human mind with mathematics is based on the philosophical assumption that the human mind is something that deterministically obeys physical laws. If you have everything represented with specific mathematical functions for example (is that what you mean by the way?), then there is no room for what we call “Free Will”. Everything is pre-determined by these “mathematical representations” and we can make any predictions we like for the future emotions of every human. Is my thinking correct or not?

    4. Untitled — Well, I think you brought up a very good point when you said we have to agree about certain terms we use in our discussion to help us understand each other better. I think maybe instead of taking a stance as to whether there are inherent limitations to science or not, it will be much easier and more interesting (pleasing) for us to approach this discussion by looking at specific arguments you have made in your post and then discussing what appears to be true and what might be questionable or a point of disagreement.OK, so one thing I notice you say is this:”3. No scientific theory explains human goodnes, human altruism. The theory of evolution – no matter how good it explains many things about species evolution – cannot explain why you may endanger your own life to resque a complete stranger”Well, I think that it is very hard for humans to intuitively come up with a reasonable theory because humans have many characteristics unlike other species. Humans are very successful in a range of environments and so to make a statement about humans in general is very difficult. We are diverse. However, I did find an interesting study done on a specific species of wasps: http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2007/09/070927164440.htmI think the problem is that this question is very hard (expensive, technically complex) to test for humans, even if such studies were made longitudinal. There have been some theories and attempts at empirical testing: Hamilton’s Rule has been tested (I think it was a Hamilton and Axelrod paper) and Game Theory presents the idea “Tit for tat.” Maybe the explanation is that confidence in oneself serves specific function and that this confidence just happens to result in risking one’s life for others. Afterall, isn’t a man in a uniform attractive? Even if he risks his life for his nation… I will read your other post on Creationism in a bit.Ok, I will also discuss human thought and consiousness a little bit. I think that it is possible for people to have very, very similar experiences and to be able to measure the similarity. This can be done by understanding much of the physical components to an emotional state. I read a bit on wikipedia about the physiology of anger:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anger#PhysiologyI think that two people with very similar physiological states would both be feeling similar feelings. (I would not call these feelings identical, just similar enough that “anger” or “sadness” was a word that was general enough to represent both people’s feelings.) This is a hypothesis I would make based on the few studies I have read. I would need to have knowledge of how to use technology and knowledge of how to interpret the data derived from this technology in order to test this hypothesis with specific studies. However, I think studies of this nature can be done.Hm, when I say: “I would not call these feelings identical, just similar enough that “anger” or “sadness” was a word that was general enough to represent both people’s feelings.” what I am talking about is the level of generality. (This appears to be a very important concept, though I have only heard of it once in a discussion group that I irregularly attended, so I cannot speak expertly, though I think I have a good intuition about it.) Using one expression of an addition alone is a very rough way to describe an idea. Using “1+1=2” is very, very general. It easily speaks to a large number of people. However, perhaps there is an expression in complex analysis that is, well, complex. This type of expression may speak to a large number of people AND it seems highly likely that this number is quite a bit smaller than the number of people who comprehend “1+1=2.”I think the same level of generality applies to conciousness. I am having a really hard time explaining my idea, so I will give you an example of how simple mathematics are useful in expressing complex emotion. The emotion I choose in this example is “wonder.”When I listen to Mozart ( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi8vJ_lMxQI ; Requiem) I feel a very large amount of wonder and passion. There are 46,378 views for this Youtube post. Only 7 hours earlier, user ‘number999999999’ responded to Requiem, calling it “wonderful…”Mozart expressed this emotion called “wonderful…” in a cryptic language known to the layperson as “sheet music.” ^_^. In addition, there are codes and precise measurements that were used to support the operation of my computer, the internet, Youtube, etc. Many simple mathematical representations were used in the construction of all these man-made artifacts; and when combined in a very specific manner, result in an expression which inspires the feeling of wonder to millions.So, the ways with which we describe human emotions can, in some sense, be described mathematically. There are differences in the how this emotion will be expressed. Some people will listen to it loudly,…

    5. Untitled — others quietly. The invariant aspects of this expression, though, are what copyright lawyers are interested in. And this is what I am interested in too.Exactly how much can we reproduce? If we want, how similar can we make one experience as good as another? And will this reproduction be economically feasible? Will it be cost-effective? Because if it is, then it is just a matter of time before we can make better and better copies of things we want copied. And, if my theory that “people with very similar physiological states would both be feeling similar feelings” is accurate AND we humans are able to reproduce physical things with greater and greater accuracy, then it is likely that people will be capable of having increasingly similar experiences.

    6. Untitled — Hi Maria. Thanks for the reply once again! Your comments are valuable and help me clarify some things. One point I must clarify is that I refer to the “Exact Sciences” in general and not to some specific scientific community and not to other scientific fields (e.g. law, sociology etc). In order to find our way out, we should agree on which are the characteristics of EXACT sciences in general, without being limited by any specific scientific community or sector of exact science.For me, I have pinpointed some major / essential characteristics of exact sciences to be:1. Measurement.2. Experiment.3. Induction logic.These are the things I refer to in the Knol and analyze their limitations.Now I cannot tell whether you disagree with these specific limitations I mention, or if you think that there is no such distinction between “Exact sciences” and “Other sciences” (e.g. that psychology will some day manage to measure everything as physics does). Is that the case?If yes, I must say that you will have a point when practice proves me wrong. Because until now no scientist in human sciences (“non-exact sciences”) has managed to create resonable models that incorporate measurements as in physics or astronomy. Until now we have no idea how to mark an emotion as +2 or as -1,92. If we do, it will be because we ourselfs created a model that includes such numbers. But every model which refers to human thinking and/or emotions is bound to intefrere with the very essense of our existence: you cannot measure anger as a number because you cannot tell what is happening inside the human brain. You may now say that we may know in the future, but that is hardly an argument in favour of you: when we do know we can have another discussion. But now the fact is that these things cannot be measured.Human thought and consiousness are things that seem to be subjective and very personal to each and every one of us. Modeling thought with mathematical models implies that if someone else reads these models will understand the thought of another person, as someone understands the “1+1 = 2”. But this cannot be true. Even if I tell you “My anger is now +2”, you will not have understood what I think and how angry I am. You will not have access to how my consiousness conceives that anger, how I REALLY feel inside. Again you may say that “someday we will have the tools to know”. Then I would ask what data do you have so that you are so sure that it is a matter of current limitations of science and not of inherent limitations of science? And I would also assure you that when that day comes I will gladly change my view and admit that I was wrong. But right now the facts tell me otherwise.I do not know if what I said was useful. Waiting for your feedback…

    7. Untitled — Ok, you may think that the construct of electric voltage is different from the construct of an emotion (such as anger), however I cannot tell exactly how this affects your argument.Your conclusion doesn’t seem to be stated accurately. I would say that the correct conclusion from my comment would be “the scientific community may feel more confident in their measurement of some constructs than others.” I think that further conclusions require the expertise of a researcher in the social sciences or some type of psychiatric studies. There are models for how people think that make use of some precise tools of measurement. Based on my experience I would say that the accuracy and scope of these tools has less to do with inherent measureability of the question, but the development of the constructs and technology used to measure them.I think your conclusion: “our science – as it now exists – has limitations still applies.” Is still too vague. If you differentiate between science (the theory and methods used) and the knowledge of the scientific community you will have an accurate conclusion. It is just linguistics.For example, I may decide that perfection in running means a living creature can run 75 miles per hour. I live in the U.S. and I may never see this occur. It is possible for me to become frustrated and state that there are limitations to running in general because I have not seen anything living run 75 miles per hour. However, cheetas are reported to run 75 miles per hour in Africa. In this example, the physical construction of the cheeta meets conditions which allow it to run according to my ideals for perfect running. The living things in the U.S. have not. Just because some living creatures meet conditions which allow it to perform to my ideals and others do not does not mean that there are limitations to running in general. It simply means that there are principles which determine the performance of running.Similarly, there may be principles which determine the performance of any scientific community. Some scientists may perform more according to ideals, some may not. This does not necessarily make any statement about the process of SCIENCE, rather it makes a statement about the conditions which affect performance in SCIENTIFIC ENDEAVORS.I have worked hard to make my ideas clear in this post, I hope they are intriguing and clear.

    8. Untitled — If we follow what you say, then even things science measures are constructs created by the human mind and we cannot even be sure about them. Why is the voltage 0,2V and not 0,21V? Because we have constructed a theory of electricity and we have defined 1V as something very specific based on other specific definitions and assumptions. So the “applied” part could be an idea in our minds.However there is a basic difference between the “vaguety” of electricity voltage definition and that of anger or emotions. The difference is that our measurements of electricity can be applied and be used in everyday life, but no theory which entails measurement of emotions can be used in any specifically useful way in our lifes (to make predictions for example).So finally you could say that there things “more measurable” than other”, or that “some things are measurable as part of a prediction model, while others are not”. Either way, the conslusion that our science – as it now exists – has limitations still applies.

    9. Untitled — Measuring anger is just a question of construct. You can measure things associated with the construct of anger. But the problem is that people mentally associate anger with many things which others do not agree with. For example, one person may think that shouting is a sign of anger, while another person believes that shouting in a certain tone IS by definition anger. Somethings we “cannot” measure are simply unmeasurable because the construction of them is vague. This has less to do with science limits and more to do with human limits concerning linguistics. Science in itself is theoretical, measuring is applied science and it is not a sure thing whether limits in applications of science are due to failures of science itself or mistakes people may make simply because they are human.

    10. Untitled — I do not agree with your reasoning. Cost is not the limit of science. Science has its own inherent limits and it cannot possibly deal with non-measurable things. You cannot say that “anger in this person is 5.2” like you measure a circle’s diameter. I cannot understand what you mean by that “general way” you mention. Maybe you can elaborate.The understanding of chemistry reactions in the brain do provide information about exactly that: the chemistry of the brain. We cannot claim that we understand anything more than that. And I really cannot tell you what this chemistry means since we are not even close in understanding the real mechanisms of the brain. Perhaps that chemistry only deals with the results of our emotions or thoughts – so dealing with it is just dealing with the effects and not the real cause.

17. It is obvious that orientalism expnands a cope of science — Although original science has been developed in Europe, oriental-ism including the China culture is now expanding and applying to the development of advanced science. Note that the China culture has been revealed to be conceptually similar with the ancient Greek culture, where religion and scientia (originality of science) are integrated. Oriental culture is more adaptive to participate in religious science research than western culture, which relatively more relies on newtonian science. For example, as indicated in this article western modern science is mostly based on dualism initiated by Descartes while oriental philosophy such as ‘Tao’ is more natural oriented. One of examples for oriental culture based science research is new age science, which has been emerged from the late of 1960. What do you think?

    1. Untitled — Every thinker that thinks outside of the as-is frame of thinking adds something to the scope of science. In that way I agree that countries which have different way of thinking than the old-good- “Western” way of thinking indeed add something. Oriental countries for a long time held different school of thought, although I admit I am not very aware of all the details. Do you have any good related links? I would like very much to add some of these ideas to my knowledge.

    2. Untitled — Originally, I meant China but any oriental countries such as Japan and Korea can be an example. Moreover, ancient Greek can be an example as we know from famous Greek and Roman myths. What do you think?

    3. Untitled — So you mean that oriental-based science is increasing the scope of science? By “oriental” you refer to which countries exactly? Maybe Islam?

    4. Untitled — ‘cope’ is my typo and it should be ‘scope’. However, scope of science is still not very good terms to represent the correct meaning in my thought so I changed my original text a little for reader’s clarification. Thank you. -James

    5. Untitled — I am sorry but I cannot clearly understand what you say. What do you mean by “cope of science”? Maybe it is my English, sorry about that. :(Do you mean that East-based science is beginning to play a major role?

18. Does ‘exact’ science represent either ‘deterministic’ or ‘newtonian’ science? — It seems that exact science represents perfect science, which is interested in only single perfect result. Although the meaning of ‘exact’ is similar to ‘deterministic’, I recommend to consider the use of ‘deterministic’ because ‘exact’ requires too tightness and can make readers confusion. One of references in this area is famous book ‘the tao of physics’ which is written by famous physicist ‘Fritjof Capra’. -James

    1. Untitled — Thanks for the info James! Indeed a lot of confusion can be created by using the right words.And indeed modern science is based on determinism. I used the term “exact science” as I found it used by Max Planck in his work “Meaning and Limits of Exact Science” (Sinn und Grenzen der exakten Wissenschaft). I will try to find that book you mention and get back to you with more on that.

19. What is ‘Religious Science’? — Religious science can have two different meanings. One is an imagination and traditionally empirical based research without every proofs and another is related to the fact that the amount of fundamental science knowledge is too huge to be treated by individual human brains (or minds). Creativity is the most important for the former definition while reliability is the most important for the later definition. What do you think?-James

    1. Untitled — It all depends to what characteristics you think religious thinking has. For me, belief in some metaphysical ideas religion postulates can and is based on logic and evidence. Take for example the anthropic principle argument, which is based on so many data of the universe being well fine-tuned for life.

20. Untitled — I recently came across your Knol and have been reading along. I thought I would leave my first comment. I don’t know what to say except that I have enjoyed reading. Nice Knol. I will keep visiting this Knol very often.http://www.flixya.com/user/Nadia123http://onlinetrd.blogspot.com

    1. Untitled — Thanks Nadia. Much appreciate your comment. You can visit my other knols as well if you wish. Any new comments or suggestions are always welcomed.

21. Religious bias — I can’t help but think you have a religious bias in your knols. “Believing that only the ‘scientific’ way os thinking exists can eliminate humanism, morality, altruism from the world.” – a common religious argument against atheism that is completely false. We don’t need a God to tell us how to behave. There are secular moral systems, you know? [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secular_ethics]Also, you made a diagram putting religion between the “world of the senses” and “reality”. And you never explain what religion has to do with any of it. If anything, religion likely takes you further from reality since it is based in faith instead of reason.Mathematics: it was long ago accepted that mathematics has to be based on unprovable axioms. This is nothing special and has no bearing on science.Materialism as dogma: yes, it is a dogma, just like everything else if you use the word “dogma” like that. Nothing can be known for certain, therefore every idea is a dogma. The statement that materialism is a dogma only serves to discredit it, and doesn’t say anything of actual substance. Also, how can you criticize dogmas when in the next breath you promote religion?

    1. Untitled — I don’t think Logic is based on religion, so that one’s okay.I would say evolution is what created morality in babies, not God.

    2. Untitled — If the theories of Aristotle are flawed to your eyes, maybe stop using Logic…Concerning ethics: Who gave those babies the sense of moral? 🙂 They came by “chance” to their brain?

    3. Untitled — Aristotle: Yes, many of the ancient philosophers were religious and based their philosophies on religion, which is why their philosophies are flawed to atheists.Secular ethics: I suppose you’d rather I believe in your moral system because it came from an ancient book claiming to be the word of God? Sorry, I’m not convinced by that. Secular ethics are based on reason and moral intuition. Did you know babies have moral instincts? – they don’t need to know God’s word to understand morality. [http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/09/magazine/09babies-t.html]Faith: Maybe I will look over your other knols and leave comments there as well.

    4. Untitled — The religious bias you think I have also applies to Aristotle who founded Logic? Because he also had formulated some arguments in favour of a First Cause in the world… Does it apply to Godel as well? Please refer to my arguments. You say there are secular moral systems. Very nice. What do these systems say? You “have” to do that because what? Where are they based? Can you convince me with a secular (a word which is really weird, are the 70% of Europeans who believe in a God “not secular”?) moral system? If yes, how can you do that? Please give me the relevant equation…Concerning dogmatism, you feel so cool in accepting that mathematics “have” to use unproved axioms (you mean *have* because a secular system of thought says so?)… That’s very good for you. Maybe I can use you as a reference for proof of what I write…Concerning religion and faith, I have written many things in the “Religion and Science unification” knol. Eagerly waiting for your comments there. In summary, faith is not the same as being a fool. Someone can believe that something happens based on evidence as well. And there are many good arguments in favour of the existence of a God, the best ones provided my mathematics…

22. Science is only one side of the coin: — You claim in the header that “Science is only one side of the coin”So what would the other side of the coin be? I am not trying to be deliberatley annoying or petty by asking this, but I would really like to know if you have something as concrete as science on the other side of the coin.

    1. Untitled — Well, the truth is, IF there is another side of the coin, we don’t know what it is, therefore we can’t say with any certainty that there is NO science in it. As Einstein said: “The miracle in the universe is that there are no miracles.” Of course there are things that we don’t understand… but to assume they are beyond comprehension or measurement seems premature. Until we KNOW what it is we are dealing with, we can’t call it GOD, we can’t call it scienceless, we can’t call it more essential, we can’t call it more powerful. I think we should reserve judgement until we have exhausted all scientific avenues. In the past there have been several things that we thought would be impossible to understand; yet, with time and persistance we have conquered these things with an entirely scientific understanding.Science never employs the fallacy of: “If it isn’t A, then it is most certainly B.” Tests are done until it is discovered to be B. Over and over again. Now, I know you are of the opinion that there are some things that Science CAN NOT explain. So I guess the biggest difference between you can I are that I say, there are things that science can NOT explain YET.

    2. Untitled — Thanks for the comment. The point is that science is indeed a very good tool. I have pinpointed that in my articles in Google Knol. However science cannot deal with everything: morality, love, emotions, trust, human relations and other similar things are beyond its scope (surely I hope you do not wait for an experiment to see if you should love your wife). So I understand that THERE IS another side of the coin with NO SCIENCE in it. There I “see” human ways of thinking that are related to intuition, fantasy, creativity, love etc. Things that are not as “concrete” as science, but more essential and powerful than science. What do you think?

23. science and life — if you can feel (yourself) you have a soul . if you can think symbolic, you have a spirit .scientists could not tell you, what feeling and thinking is . they masure only the shadows of the reality, because their instruments can not feel and think .you surely know plato’s cave parable . science only see the shadows . a dog, though it is not human, lives more in reality than a scientist .

    1. Untitled — do you mean your comment on Harmonia Philosophica ?for me time is the first dimension of the world (whereas “world” is a construction of the mind) in the sense that dimension means direction .so, if time is the first direction, it cannot have a second direction . it’s one-directional or one-dimensional .science cannot mesure real time . real time is now . science can mesure an abstraction of time (the shadow of time) . it can mesure duration or length . but length is a dimension of the room .so you have the explanation, why physicists are speaking about a 4-dimensional universe where you can go back and forth in time . you can’t .

    2. Untitled — I agree. And would very much like your opinion on the “time” issue I just added. It is a “dogma” which I feel that affects our lifes fundamendaly.

24. Atheism Is Not a Science — As the author of “The First Scientific Proog of God”, I connected God to our finite world with authentic and rational thinking. So atheism is bad for all nations. In my October 2010 bloggings, I explain the eternity of God. I also show the Godhead unfolds those attributes of God that define the Intelligent Design of ourlower finite world. Thus, a completed science is not possible. See my work at http://georgeshollenberger.blogspot.com/ George Shollenberger

    1. Untitled — Hi Spiros.The blog that you saw began as a teaching website of my self-publiched book by AuthorHouse. Over four years have passed and I am still going forward ay age 81. My work is connected to Plato, Plato’s Parmenides, Anaxagoras, and your country. I am interested in your country because I concluded that, when Jesus Christ sought to learn as a young person, he went to Greece. In the Bible, the minds of St. John and St. Paul are Greek thoughts. Although many atheists, the good math/bad math website, and bloggers of the scienceblogs website challenged me for the first two years. They did not win anything. But they haven’s been around for two years. George

    2. Untitled — Thanks George. This is a quite interesting blog you have there!

25. Science and Theology Are Being Unified — In 500 B.C., the ancient Greek, Anaxagoras, said, ‘EACH THING IS IN EACH THING.’ In the 15th century, in the book ‘On Learned Ignorncee,’ Nicholas of Cusa repeated this statement in Bk, II, Ch. 5. On 9/4/10, I explain this statement on a blog at http://georgeshollenberger.blogspot.com/. This statement is saying that a single world exists. This world has a higher world, where God is, and a lower world, where created things are. On 10/4/10, I present a related blog that shows how the higher and lower worlds can be unified. Since these higher and lower worlds are unified with coexisting opposites, this single world can never be known completely. So, the exact science of this single world will never be found.George Shollenberger

    1. Untitled — Yes, there are many inconsistences among scientists on the same theory. I have opened a new knol on ‘theological science.’ at http://knol.google.com/k/george-shollenberger/theological-science/2r7bk4a1s8zkc/1# . The unity of theology and science will turn God and the Universe into ‘One World.’

    2. Untitled — Interesting theory. I also state something similar in my Harmonia Philosophica blog at http://harmonia-philosophica.blogspot.com. Indeed the world seems to be “ONE”. Our many interpretations are merely the product of our different point of views on the same thing.

26. Connecting Our Work — Recently, I finally connected our work through Google. I connected your work to my knol work at http://knol.google.com/k/george-shollenberger/a-theological-science-known-also-as/2r7bk4a1s8zkc/1#edit and connected your knol worko also to my blogspot wotk at http://georgeshollenberger.blogspot/com/ . I have lots of respet for all of your knol wor. George

    1. Untitled — Thanks for the comment. I find your Blog rather interesting I might say! You can also check my blog at harmonia-philosophica.blogspot.com (it is bi-lingual, so just skip the Greek posts). I post there Philosophy Wires, commenting world news through philosophy. Let me know if you find them interesting.

27. Your World News on Blogspot — Your world news is very interesting.Deegeneration of DNA might be real. I say this because Nicholas of Cusa, a German of the 15th century, found that God is absolute maximum and absolute minimum. So, if one is working on the path of the infinitely large, one is on the way to God. And, if one is working on the path of the infinitely small, one is also on the way to God. Thus, the apples might have been the best earlier. I do believe in reincarnation. There, one might be refreshed with better apple. George

    1. Untitled — On indivisible things, I am using the work of Nicholas of Cusa, who discovered that God is absolute maximum and absolute minimum. Galileo recognized these indivisibles when he was studying the extension of bodies, which always form wholes and have an infinite number of parts. Thus, each body in the universe (human, orange, apple, etc.) has an indivisible thing called a soul, or fundamental principle. In Ch . 6 of Matthew, Jesus Christ teaches us to talk and ask questions to God in order to receive help if the whole of a body is sick. The talk and questions to God might help sick nations such as Egypt, or help sick oranges or apples in some nations. George

    2. Untitled — Anselm can be credired with identifying God as the greatest thing. He thus brought God into the region of ‘absolute” concepts. But when Nicholas studied Anselm, he found that the grearest thing cannot be less. So Cusa separated all absolutes from those things thar exist in a different region of things thar are ‘more or less.’ These things are calledl variables. In Cusa’s work, the world of absolutes are precisely separated from the world of variables. So, Heraclitus was right about the universe but was wrong about God and the region of unchanging absolutes. In God, I say that these absolures are attributes of God and connect God to the universe logically.The untimate minimum, which I call indivisibles, were developed by Cusa, Galileo, and Gottfried Leibniz. Leibnic called them monads in his book on Monadology. Leibniz thought that his monads were used by Greeks, who spoke of them enteles. I use indivisibles and call them ‘spiritual atoms.’ .

    3. Untitled — Thanks George. What you say is interesting, I never thought God as the ultimate minimum. But it is true that God is actually the idea behind all infinites (minimum included). If something is an apple and then turns into an organge, then maybe it was never an apple and it was never an orange – the most probable is that it is something else which can simply turn into an apple or an orange…

28. before science there was science — I read a good article–which I forget where I filed it–which explains how science didn’t begin with Galileo, but indigenous people were also scientific also.I am not a ‘scientist’ yet I employ some of the methods said to be of ‘science’. It is a natural human inclination.Now what I find sadly amusing is that scientists will NOT apply science as Spiros means here to the study of the religion from whence, what is known as modern science, emerged from! May be they are too busy with their specialization of the electron, or whatever I dont know, but surely you have to look at the bigger picture. And at the ROOTS.If they did look around they would see patterns–correlatations. For example, the ‘God’ of the Bible is a brutal war god. He is a ‘jealous god’ and would not tolerate the more ancient worship of the Goddess (yip. I said GODDESS!), and that this is evidenced both in the text of the biblical script and archaeological evidence. Why is this important?Well the whole story of the Goddess is immensely different from the patriarchal propaganda which was used to denigrate her. For with the ‘God’ story ‘he’ ,’spirit’, separates himself from nature, and in the ‘creation story’ blames Eve for the ‘fall’ of nature. Whereas the story of the Goddess was here spiritual immanence in matter. NOT as ‘spirit’ superior TO ‘matter’, but that matter being her body was spiritual and matter at the same time. (it is Plato that tried to argue the superiority of ‘spirit’ in ‘lowly matter’)Also they would find that in this myth is a very powerful taboo–and that is even the knowledge of entheogenic inspiration is forbidden which is what the Garden of Eden tale is all about! What can entheogenic inspiration encourage? Seeing and feeling and experiencing reality fundamentally differently! So what does that old myth and this current one share?Propaganda which denigrates nature, war mongering, and the war on entheogens!!Now WHY wouldn’t scientists think that this exploring of this old myth important? But you see many who dont are blind themselves to being devotees to the myth of scientism! YET if you could just convince them that if they took time to explore the old myth the present one they are cultists in will becomes more understandable. But doing so would just get abuse. Believe me I have plenty experience of this. You are held in contempt for speaking these things. Yet some of them will argue for ever the tired cliched ‘atheist’ verses ‘theist’ trip—but safely within the box of that inquiry! To explore reality you have to explore reality…

    1. Untitled — Thankyou Spiros, I will think about it. Please let me link you to my recent blog post The Myth of Mental Illness and The War on Entheogens http://intothefaerywoods.blogspot.com

    2. Untitled — You are very correct when saying that we have to go back to the roots. I understand you have comprehensive knowledge of some science history matters. Why don’t you write a Knol on the matter?

29. Very informative piece — This knol is a very informative one. I posted one knol under the title “Do Plants too have sensitivity?” I invite you to co-author on this subject to the following link: Do Plants Have Sensitivity? A Pumpkin Mourned a Death and Similar Other Incidents Says YES:(An Open Knol to Share Your Views and Suggestions) [Internet]. Version 2. Knol. 2009 Oct 18. Available from: http://knol.google.com/k/p-v-ariel/do-plants-have-sensitivity-a-pumpkin/12c8mwhnhltu7/125I Do believe that a science writer like you can show some light on these incidents. hope you do something about it. Thanks

    1. Untitled — George, The link is not connecting the page instead its taking to blogsot pl. checkthanks for your response.Phil

    2. Untitled — You need ‘Leibniz’:Philosophical Writing’s’ by G.H.R. Parkinson.It is available from Amoson.com http://www.amazon.com/Leibniz-Philosophical-Everymans-University-Paperbacks/dp/0460119052/ref=cm_cr-mr-imgThe chapter in phlosophy is called ”Monadology ‘(dated ,1714 ) His monads can be connected to the indivisibles of Nicholas of Cusa.Galileo’s work on the extension of bodies led him to say that all bodies are wholes and are formed by an infinite numnbr of indivisible parts. Leibniz’s true atoms are indivisibles. Nothing enters or leaves them. This is why they must perveive. These indicisibles form all the divisibles of the universe. Every indivisible is ‘in’ every other indivisible. So all indicisibles are functionally related.George Shollenberger is at http://georgeshollenberger.blogspot.com/and at http://knol.google.com/k/george-shollenberger/a-theological-science-known-also-as/2r7bk4a1s8zkc/1#

    3. Untitled — Have not heard of that before. Sound interesting. How does he defend the case that “atoms perceive”?

    4. Untitled — If you look at Leibniz’s Monadology, you will find the true atoms of the universe. These atoms are also spoken of as indivisibles, which form all divisibles. When doing studies on bodies, Galileo found that all bodies have an infinite number of indivisible parts. Now, Leibniz says that all true atoms can perceive. But he also says that the perception of some true atoms, like steel, are confused. If the confused ones form all nonliving things, then the unconfused things must be living things. Sinc plants are living things, Leibniz would say that plants have sensitivity because their perceptions are not confused.George Shollenberger at http://georgeshollenberger.blogsot.com/.

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